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     Post subject: Groove Reference
    PostPosted: Wed Oct 04, 2006 2:41 am 
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    Joined: Wed Oct 04, 2006 12:03 am
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    Location: Spain
     
    I'd like to know how the groove reference option, when selecting a track as reference works. For example, can I use a Drum track as a groove reference for a Bass track? I’m asking this, because I have drums that come from an old tape, and they drift in time a little bit, so I would like the Bass guitar to follow the drum tracks. Is this possible with this option? I don't see anywhere anything mentioned about it. The manual only talks about the Quantize options under groove reference (Ex. ¼ , ¼ T, etc).
    Any info would be appreciated.
    Thanks in advance.

    Guido.

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     Post subject:
    PostPosted: Wed Oct 04, 2006 2:48 am 
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    Hello Guido,

    this works indeed. Given that the drum track has already been detected by Melodyne, you can use it as a reference track for quantizing the bass. Please try it and let us know if you are happy with the results.

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     Post subject: No luck with the groove as reference track
    PostPosted: Wed Oct 04, 2006 4:47 am 
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    Thanks for your quick reply!

    The reason I asked how it worked, is because, I had already tried it and was not happy with the results. A lot of notes get moved to the wrong places, I don't understand what it does really, that's why I wanted to know how it worked to see if I was missing something. With my drum track as a reference and 1/8 I get the best results, but still a lot of the bass notes that were already pretty much were they were supposed to be, get moved way before their correct location. It seems as if some notes would need a 1/8 setting and others a 1/16. Anyway, why do I even need to bother with these settings? isn't it supposed to get the groove from my reference track? but if I leave it at "none" then it really does a bad job.
    I ended up creating a tempo map matching the drifting tempo of the drums, and then quantizing the bass to that tempo map using 1/16. But it's obviously a lot of work, so I'm looking to an easier alternative like just be able to quantize the tempo of the bass according to the groove of the drums without having to create a whole tempo map.
    Any help would be appreciated.

    Guido.

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    "Every vote may not get counted, but every dollar is always counted"
    Mike Ruppert (https://www.fromthewilderness.com)

    How is it that we Supposedly put man on the moon before we figured out it would be a good idea to put wheels on luggage?


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     Post subject:
    PostPosted: Wed Oct 04, 2006 9:59 pm 
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    Hello again,

    I doublechecked with Peter, and this is what he said:

    The problem here might be that your reference track (drums) doesn't have a constant tempo, but the bass track has. Simply applying the quantize feature with "as reference track" selected does not yet make the tempo of the bass track follow the drums' tempo. You need to consider the difference between tempo and rhythm (or groove). Quantizing is not about tempo, it's about rhythm.

    What you need in your case is some kind of a workaround:

    1. open the drum track, use the variable tempo mode to define the tempo bar by bar. Save the MDD, close the file.

    2. do exactly the same with the bass track.

    3. open both now. Activate Autostretch in the drum track arrangement.

    4. copy the bass track into the drum track arrangement.

    5. now apply quantize with "as reference track" selected.

    (It's not really necessary to close the files after step 1 and 2, but make sure to save the MDD!)

    Does it work now?

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     Post subject: I did !
    PostPosted: Thu Oct 05, 2006 3:42 am 
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    Thanks for your suggestion!

    I think I just did that, because the bass track was recorded to those drums, meaning that it has the same tempo. So when I created a tempo map on the arrangement taking the drums as a reference, that tempo map still applies to the bass track. Later I quantized the bass track to the drums track, as I said earlier, but the results were far from perfect. I had to go back to the MDD of the bass track and define the beginning of almost every bass note, so that they would get aligned properly. All in all it's been a lot of work, and still some corrections I had to do by hand afterwards. So I have to consider whether is worth it to use melodyne for this type of job. It's also fair to say that the Bass track was played quite rubato.
    Anyway, could you tell me how melodyne decides when a new note starts? Is there a way of optimizing that process without having to do each note by hand?
    Thank you again for your time and your patience.

    Guido.

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    How is it that we Supposedly put man on the moon before we figured out it would be a good idea to put wheels on luggage?


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     Post subject: Re: I did !
    PostPosted: Thu Oct 05, 2006 11:32 am 
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    Guido wrote:
    It's also fair to say that the Bass track was played quite rubato.


    Hello Guido,

    now I'm a bit confused. You want to quantize a rubato track?

    Quote:
    Anyway, could you tell me how melodyne decides when a new note starts? Is there a way of optimizing that process without having to do each note by hand?


    Don't know about the internal "decision". But if you need to move all notes for the same amount, you can select all, grab the first blob at the very start (main tool will change into the move tool) and move it. All other blobs will follow.

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     Post subject:
    PostPosted: Thu Oct 05, 2006 7:11 pm 
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    Hello Claudio,

    Yes, I want to quantize the bass track to the drums. When I said it was played "rubato", I meant not very well in time.

    On the other hand, it seems that Melodyne doesn’t set the start of all bass notes equally. Sometimes it thinks that the note starts when it is barely audible, and sometimes when it is already almost at its maximum. So in order to quantize them I need to correct every start of each note manually. That's why I wanted to know if there was any parameter I could play with to see if they would get set more automatically all at the same points more or less.

    Thanks a lot in advance!

    Guido.

    _________________
    "Every vote may not get counted, but every dollar is always counted"
    Mike Ruppert (https://www.fromthewilderness.com)

    How is it that we Supposedly put man on the moon before we figured out it would be a good idea to put wheels on luggage?


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     Post subject:
    PostPosted: Tue Oct 17, 2006 5:52 pm 
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    Guido was so kind to upload his files so we could take a closer look. This is what I have just written him. I'll post it here for everyone to read, in case you come across the same problem:

    Quote:
    Hello Guido,

    the main problem with your audio files seems to be that the bass sounds very "blurry". Some notes are clearly misplaced in timing. Even with your ears it is hard to tell where the notes are supposed to belong. The playing technique is also a bit unsuitable. There are hardly any attacks in the bass sound, thus giving Melodyne a hard time to detect the notes' start (transients). If you take a look at the detection for this file (Edit > Correct detection), you will see that some note separations are missing, because Melodyne simply could not "hear" any attacks.

    Now there are two ways to go: Either you record a new bass track, played as accurately as possible and with clear attacks. Or you spend a lot of time adding all note separations in the Correct detection mode. Once you have corrected the detection, it should be easy to quantize the track.


    @ all: Please note, Melodyne works best with properly recorded files. Although it has some good automatic functions, you have to keep in mind that it can't do any magic. (Well, actually it can, but don't tell anyone ...) The less professional the material is, the more you would have to edit manually before you can make proper use of some Melodyne features.

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     Post subject:
    PostPosted: Tue Oct 17, 2006 7:44 pm 
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    Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2006 10:24 am
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    Location: Norway @ home
     
    Melodyne plugin
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    Claudio, I couldn't agree more. Play the instrument or sing as good as you possibly can. Use the best equipment and recording technique available, and then turn to software technology for editing.

    I haven't had the pleasure of working with one of those big tape machines, but I did start out recording and mixing on a 4-tracker. On cassettes, remember those things?

    Recording that way I quickly learned that it was essential to get the best possible performance down, before doing any editing and mixing.

    Now I have a Pro Tools rig with an awful lot of plugins and editing/fixing software at my fingertips, but I still try to think of it as a 4-tracker. I opt for the most appropriate signal chain for any given sound source, and if time permits I always record new takes instead of the "fix it in the mix" approach.

    Guido, keep at it, and rawk on.

    8)

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